Brian narration: This is Built, a podcast series where you’ll meet the people behind some of the biggest transactions and investments in commercial real estate, and hear how they got to where they are today.

I’m your host Brian Maughan, chief marketing officer with Fidelity National Financial.

And those of us in this business, well we know the buildings...but how many of us know the stories of the people behind those structures?

This time, my guest is Denice Tokunaga. Denice is a real estate partner at law firm Seyfarth Shaw in Seattle, where she works with some major players in industrial real estate.

She grew up in a small town near Dallas, went to law school in Austin, and moved to Seattle in the mid-2000s, seduced by the water and the mountains. She’s never looked back.

Recently Denice has been named one of the Best Lawyers in America…and a Seattle Super Lawyer. I couldn’t wait to meet her.

Brian Maughan: Tell me a little bit about the kind of work that you're doing today and maybe the area that you're focused on, you know, what kind of transactions you're involved in.

Denice Tokunaga: Sure. So my entire career I have done commercial real estate and it's evolved over time. I mean, certainly as the economy changes and different things become more popular, as a real estate attorney, I think you have to be able to be nimble and pivot to whatever it is that people are developing. I am a true development lawyer. So acquisition, disposition, construction and development. Currently, right now I'm in the industrial real estate space. Started during the recession, made a pivot to that and have been practicing in that space for the last 12 years.

Brian Maughan: Is there a specific part of industrial that you have focused more on than others?

Denice Tokunaga: I'm definitely focused on industrial for e-commerce users, fulfillment distribution centers across the U.S. of various sizes. And it's really just following really a trend in industrial real estate and in particular here in Seattle, but across the country of industrial really shifting from traditional manufacturing, support of manufacturing and in sort of those heavy industrial uses that a lot of people tend to think about when you say industrial, so much of the shift, particularly over the last 10 years, has been to support e-commerce. And so really this hybrid of retail and industrial for online purchasing.

Brian Maughan: I think about, you know, that word, oh, industrial real estate, right? Or that segment. It really has changed in definition. We don't think about it in terms of the plant anymore, the manufacturing location, we think of it as the warehouse, the distribution center, the fulfillment center. And it's interesting. It sounds like from kind of the time you got into practice that that's about the time that that definition really started to change. It was the early 2000s that you came out of law school and started to practice commercial real estate law, about the time that e-commerce started to make this kind of new wave to become part of our everyday lives. How have you seen real estate transactions change because of the internet, because of e-commerce and the influence those players have on everyday life?

Denice Tokunaga: I think over the last 10 years, though particularly in industrial, what we've seen is really disruption in how we go about developing land, and I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg of, you know, as people, as a society, we're more involved in wanting instant gratification. If you decide you need some batteries, you hop online, you buy them, you expect them at your door right away. It's this change in thinking from even 10 years ago where you had to get in your car and drive to a store to buy something, now where it's much more ingrained in us that it can be delivered to our home. And of course, there's many of our retail companies now are responding to that, responding to being able to be flexible and nimble of what their customer wants. And as a result, that trickles down into the industrial world as industrial developers 10, 15 years ago, you would buy land traditionally in more rural areas. You'd build a building that you know, speculative development, which just meant you would build a building that looked like the rest of the other buildings, guessing what some type of tenant would need. They would come in and they all pretty much needed the same type of building. I think the disruption that we've seen in industrial real estate is how that's changed. You know, maybe, these buildings need to be closer to urban cores because again, as retail providers wanting to serve their customers faster delivery times, you need facilities closer to the urban core to reduce transportation cost and time. It's also changing perhaps the footprint of the buildings. Maybe we need more parking. Maybe we need to be taller because technology's advancing in how these buildings are being operated.

Brian Maughan: From an attorney's perspective, as you work on these deals, even though we're still buying land, we're still building buildings…generally, they have four walls and a roof or some combination thereof. What's changed for you specifically as counsel for these type of transactions?

Denice Tokunaga: As the technology is advancing, as people's needs are, company's needs are constantly evolving…I feel that as an attorney, we've moved much more from I have the document, I draft it, I'm really just focusing on indemnity or insurance or waiver of subrogation or these really boring, esoteric legal terms that nobody really wants to talk about. Instead, my role has really evolved to more on the development side of having to solve problems, help solve problems to actually get the building built on time, under budget for my clients. So I'd say it's morphed more of... outside of the traditional legal role and much more in several hats - project management, a little bit of construction to be dangerous, a little bit of permitting and entitlements and development to be dangerous, but but morphing and being more nimble to be able to help get the deal done and the challenges that you face from, you know, need to get the buildings online quickly being able to to think ahead of the needs of the operations of - I think my problem solving skills have have had to evolve and and be more creative, frankly.

Brian Maughan: So across the United States, you're doing transactions in many, many states, many, many jurisdictions, like you said, many different types of communities, right? Rural, urban, everywhere. Give me an example or think back to maybe the early part of your career, an early transaction that kind of sticks out in your mind or an early problem that you had to kind of grapple with and solve to make it, you know, the project move forward or become completed?

Denice Tokunaga: Probably the first large project I did 12 years ago in a rural area…but the challenges we faced from just site specific challenges of certain issues with the soil, you know, dealing with the elements there, but also the prior uses of the site. It was a former munitions manufacturing site by Department of Defense that had been cleaned up. But it was one of these on title where, you know, the U.S. government says, ‘Well, we think we got everything. But if you come across any bombs, call us, let us know.’ So it's, then so you're dealing with the challenges of this site of can…you know, what type of foundations do we need to make sure that the building can work with this type of soil? What do we do when we come across…Are we going to come across any bombs or munitions? What is that? So not just getting the building built, but then thinking through, how do we safely build this and have it operate so that we are not putting employees at risk? You know, that was an interesting one from just the site specific issues of the first time I had really dealt with it. And again, outside of the four corners of the document trying to problem solve of how do we get comfortable, how do we assess this risk, how do we mitigate that risk so that we can get this building built and have people feel safe and be able to work in it? So that was, that sort of got me hooked on doing this type of work and in this type of work within industrial real estate.

Brian Maughan: Now I have to ask, did you find any bombs?

Denice Tokunaga: We did not. We did not. And it's - the building is still functioning today and everyone is safe. And we luckily did not have to call Department of Defense to come back out. [laughs]

Brian Maughan: Oh, that's great. So how did you first get interested in law? You said you grew up in a kind of a small Texas town. Family attorneys? Involved in commercial real estate? Tell me a little bit about how you evolved into, you know, where you are today.

Denice Tokunaga: I grew up in a very small community, very humble background. I was actually the first to graduate from high school. My father was a carpenter. My mother stayed at home and I just was always, I always loved school. I had wonderful mentors going, you know, throughout my elementary, middle school, high school time. And it was just always a dream of mine. I did want to go to college and certainly for my parents too, they wanted, obviously, like any parent wanted their children to do better. So I was the first to graduate high school and go to college. And I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I enjoyed studies at my - my degree's in international relations, so I thought at first perhaps I'd go to D.C. and work, or work with the United Nations. But I had a mentor in college who really steered me towards law. I mean, his point was, you know, with a law degree, you can do anything. Yes, you can practice traditional law, but you can also run a business. You can go on and do this international work. But the law degree helps provide that critical thinking skills that is so important and will help you succeed in really anything you do.

Brian narration: Denice went to law school at UT Austin. She stayed there for several years after she graduated, working for a Dallas-based firm, before she made the big move to Seattle.

She’s thrilled with the opportunities she’s had in the last couple of decades. But she says her rise has been uncomfortable too.

Denice Tokunaga: I think for anyone who comes from a humble background and succeeds and does well, there is a challenge that you face of adjustment. And certainly, you know, having gone through feelings of sort of imposter syndrome of being in an environment that you did not necessarily grow up in or not having connections, your family's not connected to anyone. You don't have several alumni in your family of certain schools. So that, that was definitely a struggle that I worked through throughout my whole career of just recognizing it and being thankful that I've had these opportunities. You can debate nature versus nurture of, did my background cause me to have such a strong work ethic and…or vice versa? But it definitely made me very appreciative of where I am, wanting to work hard. And I think that's probably why I gravitated towards development. I enjoyed seeing things succeed and be built and - and my clients having success. 

Brian Maughan: You look at commercial real estate and one of the greatest things about it is that you get to see it go up right? When you develop a building. It wasn't there. And now it is. It's a great thing to be able to see that physical kind of manifestation of the work you're doing.

Denice Tokunaga: Oh sure. And great sense of pride because you do recognize, you know, to see this develop. I mean, when I was in law school, I actually thought I was going to be a trial lawyer. And then I did a mock trial and it was disastrous. I was terrible. I cried through the whole thing. I think I got an ulcer, and it was during a time I was a summer associate at a law firm in Dallas, and they gently pulled me aside and said, ‘Maybe you should meet our real estate counterparts. Maybe you're not cut out for trials.’ But it was the best thing that happened to me. So I actually ended up in real estate because of that. But also, I really liked the people I was working with in real estate. So from the transactional sense, yeah, I gravitated towards this concept of recognizing that so many people from various disciplines have to come together and add value to make this building happen and all that goes into it. And to appreciate that and then to actually see a finished product as opposed to trial work where someone wins and someone loses, I like seeing the tangible piece that you helped build.

Brian Maughan: You mentioned this idea of kind of the imposter syndrome. This ‘I’m this girl from Texas who now has gone forward and has this career and works with real estate,’ commercial real estate at that. How are you able to kind of work through those feelings?

Denice Tokunaga: It's definitely a challenge and I would say I probably did not start to become more comfortable with it until maybe the last, you know, five or six years as I moved more into management of having people work for me in mentoring people and realizing, you know, the issue of the imposter syndrome is that you feel you are the only one. So you do everything you can to blend in with everyone in the room and not stand out. And what you don't realize is there are probably another four or five other people who feel exactly the way you do, and they also feel alone. And so I think the more I began mentoring young attorneys, working with young attorneys, growing the office, I realized that maybe my experience and my story could be an inspiration to others and help them achieve their greatest potential of pushing them and providing them the platform where they can succeed. But also seeing that someone similar to them in some way was able to do it and they could, too. So I don't know. I mean it was definitely a challenge, and you always self-doubt, which makes you work even harder to ensure that you're the smartest person in the room and you haven't forgotten anything or you're not prepared. But at the same time, I realize the more I open up, the more I could hopefully help others and have confidence in themselves so that they could get to that stage much earlier in their career.

Brian Maughan: It's so interesting. You had a mentor that helped direct you to law school. That was impactful to you. And then you even continue to be benefited, but this time by being the mentor.

Denice Tokunaga: Right, right.

Brian Maughan: We hope that lots of different people are listening to this podcast. But certainly as we look at you and your career, Denice, and we look at what you're able to accomplish, it seems reasonable, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, any advice that you would give someone, I don't know, coming up from similar circumstances or just entering their first career in commercial real estate, what would you tell them they should focus on?

Denice Tokunaga: I go back to the line of you work hard and you want to be the smartest person in the room. But what that doesn't mean is that you're the aggressor. You're the yeller. You try to beat someone down in the ground in a negotiation. It's not a score card. It's not, I'm the smartest person in the room because I won 10 negotiation points to their two. I think really to be successful and what I mean by being the smartest person in the room is to really look at it holistically. What is it that we are trying to accomplish? What is it that my client wants to accomplish? How does that dovetail with the other people on the other side of the table? What are they trying to accomplish and how do we get there? It's back to that problem solving, being able to read the room, being able to understand everyone's objective. And so really being the smartest person in the room means you can understand all of that and help come up with the game plan for everyone to be able to achieve their objectives and develop property or sell property or buy it. But to me, I just think it's understanding the value you add to a transaction isn't necessarily winning for yourself. It's making sure that your client's objectives are met, but you still remove the obstacles so that everyone can achieve success.

Brian Maughan: You have like this calming presence and I can imagine you're sitting in the room negotiating and everyone’s, ‘Yes, yes, yes.’ Right?

Denice Tokunaga: [Laughs] Also, you know, I'm not a yeller, so I'm very much the disappointed schoolteacher. So if - someone knows I'm upset by just lecturing them at this voice, they know they're in trouble [laughs].

Brian Maughan: Oh, there you go. Look at your clients that you work for. Are they changing in terms of what they expect from you? You've talked about your growth and your evolution and I'm curious - are the clients looking for you or commercial real estate attorneys differently now than they were when you started?

Denice Tokunaga: I think so. I think again, it goes back to the role that we are playing again in the industrial space of being more than just the lawyer drafting the documents. I think for me in particular for my clients and new clients that are coming to me, looking at me more on that sort of advice and strategy level as well of how do we, how do we particularly, like I said, a new startup or a new user to industrial space, how do we scale this? You know, advice on really taking them from one building in Chicago…How do we scale it across the country, just using my background over the last 10 years to be able to do that. So I would say, at least for me in particular, people are looking for me and more of that strategic advice process. How do we do this efficiently, not just from a cost standpoint, but also for speed? I mean, again, industrials - industrial real estate is still lightning speed, and you have to be able to react quickly. So how do we remove obstacles so that development can happen quickly, but also efficiently and cost wise as well. So I think that part has changed.

Brian Maughan: How important is trust in the deal right now? I mean, with everything going on and things moving so quickly and deals being complicated and jurisdictions and dirt level issues that maybe the business side doesn’t really understand but knows it has to get done…how important is trust and how do you develop that?

Denice Tokunaga: Oh, absolutely. I mean, really trust in relationships among all of the parties, whether it's between you and your client, you and the developer, on the other side, the jurisdictions, to your point, it is so important to have those relationships because things are moving so quickly. You have complicated issues, but what you have, really what you have to rely on is your reputation and the relationships that you forge. Because things do happen, you're going to sign the documents. Things are going to go awry. You're going to have issues on site. But if you have that trust and relationship, you're going to solve it quickly. So again, you can get the buildings built. So it is imperative. And again, I think that goes back to, you know, being, being very straightforward in negotiations, in developing those relationships and trust of I want to add value. I'm not here for my ego. It has nothing to do with me. I want to make sure I can add value to get the building done. And I think that goes a long way so that when issues do arise later, you work it out more quickly because you've developed that trust.

Brian Maughan: Fantastic. Well I - from one small town boy to a small town girl, thank you so much for your time with us today.

Denice Tokunaga: Thank you, this has been an honor.

Brian narration: Thanks for listening to this episode of Built. We’ll be back with another show in a couple of weeks.

Built is a co-production of Fidelity National Financial and PRX Productions. From FNF, our project is run by Annie Bardelas. At PRX, our team is producer Ashley Milne-Tyte, Senior Producer Genevieve Sponsler, and associate producer Courtney Fleurantin. Our editor is Isabel Hibbard. Audio mastering by Rebecca Seidel.

The Executive Producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

I’m Brian Maughan.

Every story is unique, every property is individual, but we’re all part of this BUILT world.