Brian narration: This is Built, a new podcast series where you’ll meet the people behind some of the biggest transactions and investments in commercial real estate, and hear how they got to where they are today.

I’m your host Brian Maughan, chief marketing officer with Fidelity National Financial.

Those of us in this business, we know the buildings...but how many of us know the stories of the people behind those structures?

Today, we’re gonna hear Michelle Kelban’s story. Michelle is the global co-chair of Latham & Watkins’ real estate practice. She has practiced law for over 20 years and she’s a leading authority in commercial real estate law.

In April 2020, when most of us were moving out of offices and entering quarantine, Michelle was being elected to the American College of Real Estate Lawyers - an elite invitation-only group.

She grew up on Long Island and has spent her adult life living and working in New York City.

We at FNF have had the pleasure of working with Michelle and Latham Watkins for many, many years, and I couldn’t wait to find out more about how she built her career in commercial real estate.

Brian narration: Michelle, thank you for being with us today. You’ve been at Latham your entire career and you’re the leader of the real estate practice of a global law firm. But looking back, is there anything in your childhood that you can see helped point you in this direction?

Michelle: Yeah, actually, it's interesting because I was actually a really shy child, which a lot of people would be very surprised, I think, to hear. But when I got a little bit older, maybe around 11, right as I was going into middle school, I became a lot more outgoing and I started running for student council and all that stuff that kids do, and ultimately ended up in what I would call early stage leadership roles, you know, sort of starting at that age and continuing through high school and definitely in college. Now I did a lot of that kind of stuff. I ran my dorm. I did a whole bunch of things with residents in college and things, and that personality trait and those personality aspects that I don't think anyone would have thought necessarily were there when I was seven or eight, play very much into how I lead the group today and the roles that I take on and what interests me in terms of not just practicing, but helping to manage a business.

Brian: Great. And so was NYU always kind of the vision? Did you want to go there? Is that always the plan?

Michelle: So when I started applying, I was dead set on Columbia, but I didn't get in. Such is life. And you know what? Everyone who’s listening, who is thinking, ‘I want I want,’ and if you don't get it, it's like the road not taken. It's totally true. I ended up getting into NYU. They gave me a big scholarship and it was the greatest thing I could have ever done. I really, really enjoyed my time at NYU. Like I said, I had a whole bunch of different kinds of leadership roles there. They had an unbelievably varied curriculum where I was able to just pick my major, which was urban studies that I didn't even know existed before I went to college and it couldn't have been better. Living in New York City and majoring in the study of cities is pretty awesome.

Brian: It sounds like it. And was that always, I guess, kind of on your horizon in Long Island, looking at New York, being fascinated by cities? Was there any part of that that kind of led you into urban studies and then ultimately into law?

Michelle: Well, I was definitely always interested in cities, I definitely spent a lot of time in the city. My mom would take me in and we'd go to museums and things like that. I think what interested me about it and where there's a parallel is that urban studies was - had so many different disciplines. It was psychology, sociology, architecture, urban planning. There were a lot of different aspects to it. And so I thought that was very interesting. My practice is very similar. So I do everything related to real estate, but there's lots of different things: I do real estate finance, acquisitions and dispositions, joint ventures, workouts, mergers, like anything you can think of. And there was a parallel there because I think I always like to be challenged and be doing new things and learning new things, and my practice does that and my major in college did that as well. So I think that's where there were a lot of parallels. And obviously urban studies touches on real estate because you're studying cities and how they're put together and the infrastructure and all of that.

Brian narration: Michelle started out as a summer associate at Latham, before she was offered a job. She says there was definitely a learning curve.

Michelle: That time was so important. I put myself through school, so like, I worked many different jobs, it’s not like I had never worked before. But this was my first, like, real job, you know, as a career. I just felt very green and sort of inexperienced.

Brian narration: During her time as a summer associate Michelle worked with a partner at the firm who ultimately became her mentor - a guy named James Hisiger.

Michelle: At the end of the summer, I ended up getting feedback, of course, on my performance during the summer. And one piece of feedback was, ‘Jamie Hisiger says you have to stop chewing gum and twirling your hair in meetings.’ And I was just, you know, mortified. But it turned out to be A, great advice. And B, you know, it just showed me that people aren't perfect, and sometimes you just need a little polishing or a little advice from someone who has been doing it a lot longer than you, no matter what it is, could be law, could be anything else, to just kind of like get you where you need to be. And that little tiny thing that at first I was just like I said, I was just mortified. But it turned out to be the greatest thing because I went to speak to him, and I was so worried that he wouldn't want to work with me anymore because I was so interested in real estate and what if when I come back to the firm as a full time associate, he doesn't want to work with me...but we forged a really strong relationship starting from exactly that moment in time. And he's still my mentor to this day, even though he's since retired.

Brian: I’m fascinated by the fact that you were able to take that feeling of being mortified a little bit which I'm sure we would all feel, and use it to help propel you.

Was that a hard thing to do, or what motivated you to take that from just kind of being, ‘oh, I can't believe he had to say that’ to, ‘OK, good feedback. I'm going to incorporate that.’ Is that just part of your personality?

Michelle: I think some of it is personality, but a lot of as I remember, I spoke to another one of my mentors, someone who was on the recruiting committee, a partner who I felt had a very vibrant person, he was very outgoing, always laughing, making jokes, you know, just very outgoing personality. And I said to him, I just - I'm worried. I want to make sure that I'm not going to be at a job somewhere where I can't be myself. I want to be able to be myself. That doesn't mean I have to chew gum at all my meetings, but I want to be able to be myself and sort of show my personality. I'm not just going to be sort of sitting there reading my document, never saying a word, never being who you are, which is what makes the world go round. And he had given me some great advice, which was, ‘look, you can always be yourself, this is like a little thing, this is like a nothing, that you just don't know because you've never done this before.’ So I guess I just take it as like, instead of looking at it, when someone's giving you criticism, and sometimes it's nice, sometimes it’s said not so nicely, but whenever it is. And even to this day when I get criticism, which happens, I just sort of try to say, look, you know, they're telling me this for a reason. What's the reason? And you just sort of have to take from it the good parts and the parts that are productive and helpful to keeping you moving forward.

Brian: So let's spend a little time talking about your career because you've had an amazing career, like we said, in practice for two decades. Tell us a little bit about what stands out: projects, clients themes. What might be some of the highlights that you recall?

Michelle: Getting my job at Latham was and continues to be a huge highlight of my career. I really didn't know anything about big law firms, about what they do, about how it is to work there, nothing. And so I interviewed at a lot of different places and Latham chose me and I chose them. It was really, really amazing to get a steady paycheck and continues to be, and I continue to be extremely grateful for the steadiness of this firm and how lucky I am to have landed there.

Brian narration: She says making partner was also a huge thrill. It happened during the financial crisis just over a decade ago. The downturn affected her firm as it did everyone, and she was afraid partnership might not happen. But it did.

Michelle: Client highlight I would say, absolutely Colony Capital. They’re a big private equity real estate firm, they’re doing a big pivot right now into digital real estate.

Brian narration: She landed them as a client soon after she became a partner. It happened when a colleague of hers left Latham Watkins and told her he was taking a job at Colony. At first she was upset - she liked the guy, thought they were going to keep working together. She didn’t know they still would be.

Michelle: And so he called me from Colony. It was my very first client that I brought in as a partner, and I've worked for them ever since on some of their most important transactions. And my friend who went there is one of my closest friends and has since gone off and done his own fund and all of that. But my work for Colony, learning how to develop really deep client relationships with a very diverse group of people, different types of personalities, learning how to take care of a client and really make it like a baby and sort of cause it to grow and take care of it, like you care about every single thing that goes on with that client, because that's how you win loyalty.

Brian: You've been involved in some very large individual transactions, hospitality, obviously portfolios...Talk to us a little bit about some of those projects, which ones of those stand out and maybe in your role as a new partner or kind of, again, from this place of, being in a very male dominated industry, right?

Michelle: Yeah, I mean, it is a very male dominated industry. I mean, it's still not atypical for me to be the only woman. And you know, I approach that the same way I’ve approached kind of everything else, which is I just try to find common ground with whoever I'm dealing with. Right. Like I'm talking to you today. I would try to find common ground with you. Right. And I speak to a client, a new client, an old client, whatever it is. That's how I forge my relationships. I've just found common ground with people where sometimes it's not obvious that you would have it. People make assumptions about other people and that's what really gets in the way, I think, of forging connections.

Brian narration: Forging connections helps with multi-layered projects as well.

Michelle: Usually the hardest ones are the most rewarding. One of the deals I worked on was a transaction where my client owned a piece of debt and they needed to basically protect their rights as a piece of subordinate debt vis a vis a whole bunch of other debt holders. And in order to do that, they had to follow very, very, very specific  provisions of a document that if you messed up, you could lose all of your rights and losing all of their rights would have meant losing a billion dollar investment. I mean, it was a very high stakes situation, high pressure, high stress. The client was very stressed out. In fact, someone at the client was so upset, he was so upset. It was someone that I had a really great relationship with. And he was always super nice and funny and all this. And we were on a call one day and he just started cursing at me, he was really mad about something I was recommending that he do. And I was really taken aback by it. But I just sort of didn't really react. I sort of said, look, you know, you guys can ultimately decide to do whatever you want to do. But if you do what you want to do, you're at very high risk of losing, you know, three hundred million dollars. If you do what I'm telling you to do, you're going to spend 20, but you're going to protect your three hundred. I don't know what else to tell you.

Brian narration: She says in the end, everything worked out.

Michelle: He ended up apologizing later and said he had to put a lot of quarters in the curse jar that they have next to his office. But I guess my point is, that's still a highlight. Meaning that actually connected us even more and we joke about it. And the deal was extremely difficult intellectually and it was emotional for everybody in the sense that it had attention from the very highest levels of the client. And so everybody was under a lot of pressure. And it also involved over a hundred and fifty hotels. And at the end of the deal or towards the end I remember the client saying, I've never seen anything like it, you really know this, you know that document. Like I felt like I had accomplished something because I had really, you know, won over the client.

And I felt like that deal was extremely important to my career.

Brian: Two final questions for you. Hopefully there's someone listening to this that is young and thinking about what they want to do with their life and growing into their career. Advice for them? Maybe a young Michelle out there who might be listening. What would you tell them?

Michelle: So I would say be confident in yourself, be inquisitive and be open to opportunity, take initiative and just show people that you're interested. One of the ways that I got more involved in Latham in governance and things like that, which ultimately helped make a name for myself, was my mentor, who I mentioned, Jamie...taking a step back, Latham has a lot of committees, we’re governed by committee. And so I went to him and said, I'm really interested in being involved in a committee. Not surprising given all of my leadership roles in college and all that stuff. I like that kind of stuff. And he said, well, you know, it reminded me of something my parents would have said to me, ‘you should go talk to the office managing partner and tell him.’ I mean, it was a third year associate. I think I was twenty six years old. So I go to this guy's office and he's this big, important guy with this huge book of business, happens to be the nicest guy in the world. But I went and I'm like, Dave, you know, I would like to be on the recruiting committee and looking back like, what was I doing? But you know what? It was the greatest thing. I spent two years on the recruiting committee. I got to meet hundreds and hundreds of people globally across the firm, partners, associates, everybody. And then after that, I went on to our associates committee, which was in charge of all of our associate compensation and other things, and met tons and tons and tons of more people. And some of those people I'm still friends with today, having sat with them at a table trying to make compensation decisions 15 years ago.

Brian narration: Being on committees helped her make connections. And she kept standing up for herself.

Michelle: There's ways to advocate for yourself that aren't off-putting to people. You don't have to advocate for yourself in a way that's like, I’m the best, I’m the best. No, it’s just if you want something, you should ask for it. And there's lots of ways to do that. And everybody has their own way of doing it. And I say be true to yourself, but advocate for yourself. That's my motto.

Brian: Final question. As you look either across to your skyline or you think about some of the skylines that you've been able to see. Do you have a favorite building? Is there a favorite thing that you have worked on, seen, or just like to look at?

Michelle: My favorite building is the Chrysler Building. Totally cliche, but whatever. You know I've worked on lots and lots of interesting buildings that I love looking at them. I think that, you know, when my mom comes to town or whatever, and I take her and I show her some of the stuff I've worked on, or my grandparents, they're still around, which is amazing. They can't travel anymore but when they used to come, they couldn’t get over it. It's like they can't comprehend that I'm working with the Plaza Hotel or, you know, that I helped build the Four Seasons downtown or whatever it is. It’s like their heads are going to explode. But it's just fun to be able to do that. And even, you know, if we drive past the Covanta power plant that I financed, you know, 12 years ago in Queens, I'm like, look, I did that, too, like...It’s so diverse. I just find that fun and interesting. And it's definitely one of the things that attracted me to the business in the first place. And certainly one of the things that keeps me going is just sort of being able to connect with things that I've worked on and look at them.

Brian: Fantastic. Michelle, thank you again. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. And I appreciate your candid nature and your willingness to go through this with us.

Michelle: Oh of course, it was great talking with you too. Thank you so much.

Brian narration: Thanks for listening to this episode of BUILT, we hope you enjoyed it. We’d love to hear your feedback - email us at built@fnf.com. We’ll be back in a couple of weeks with another show.

Built is a co-production of Fidelity National Financial and PRX Productions. From FNF, our project is run by Annie Bardelas. At PRX, our team is producer Ashley Milne-Tyte, production manager Genevieve Sponsler, production assistant Courtney Fleurantin and intern Claire Carlander. Audio mastering by Rebecca Seidel. The Executive Producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Special thanks for help with this episode goes to Fred Glassman and Joanna Patilis.

 I’m Brian Maughan.

Every story is unique, every property is individual, but we’re all part of this BUILT world.